♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> Dr. Tshaka Cunningham, one of the nation's leading molecular biologists, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

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♪♪ ♪♪ >> We're very honored to have Dr. Tshaka Cunningham.

Welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> I'm very happy to be here, Dr. Chavis.

>> Where did you first get your studies?

>> So, I started studying science at an early age.

I actually got my love and passion for science from my grandmother, the late Miss Alfreda Simmons, who was a researcher at the National Cancer Institute.

She actually did research at NCI, which is part of the NIH, on small-cell lung cancer.

>> And how old were you at that time?

>> I was 6 or 7 years old.

>> So you picked that up from your grandmother early?

>> I did, and my grandmother -- we didn't have a lot of money, so I couldn't afford to go to summer camp.

So my grandmother would take me to the lab with her during the summers.

And that's how I learned about cancer and got excited about science and research.

And she started teaching me techniques like polymerase chain reaction, which is PCR, which a lot of people are familiar with now because that's what was used for the COVID test.

But she taught me all of this at a young age and got me passionate about science.

>> Where did you go to college?

Where did you go to graduate school and what did you get your PhD in?

>> Well, I've been really lucky.

I think I had a really great educational path.

I started out in Montgomery County public schools in Maryland, and then I was able to go to St. Albans, which is a prestigious school here in D.C., a private school for boys.

And from St. Albans, I performed excellently academically and was able to get into Princeton University.

And there at Princeton, I chose Princeton because they had a Department of Molecular Biology, so I actually could major in the kind of science my grandmother had started teaching me.

Then from Princeton, I had a different path.

I went directly into the pharmaceutical industry.

I got my first job in pharma drug development and learned how drugs are actually developed and made, and then went back to get my PhD at Rockefeller University.

I became a David Rockefeller Fellow.

I graduated near the top of my class.

I was the valedictorian of my class at Rockefeller, and it was a tremendous experience for me, empowering as one of the few African-American males that ever went that path.

And then after Rockefeller, I had really my choice of postdoctoral offers.

I took one at in Paris at the Pasteur Institute.

So I was there for a bit and then went to my final postdocs at the National Institutes of Health.

And so I've had just an enjoyable academic experience filled with a lot of great mentors and a lot of empowering opportunities, but had to navigate it with the values that my grandmother and mother instilled in me, which was a belief in myself not only that I belonged, but that I was going to be especially excellent at whatever I chose to do, which was science.

>> On that one question, the way you answered, you can just talk about that the whole program.

>> [ Laughs ] >> It's so inspiring.

What young people are exposed to makes a difference.

Because according to the Department of Commerce, there is a shortage of molecular biologists.

There's a shortage of data scientists.

And I know your specialty is DNA.

We're going to get into it, but I just want to lay the context of the opportunities in the STEMM field.

What are the opportunities for STEMM scientists?

>> Huge opportunities.

And I'm very passionate about this topic, as you will know, because I'm actually on an advisory committee called the STEMM Opportunity Alliance, which is the National Academies of Sciences, the president's... the Office of Science and Technology Policy, trying to look at that problem holistically because it is a problem for our country.

We've had a bit of a brain drain here from our own population.

We import a lot of science and technology talent from all over the globe -- India, China, other places -- instead of really investing and nurturing our own.

And that's something that has to change.

>> What would you say to young people and to parents who are watching the importance of getting into a science career track very early?

>> Well, I would say exposure is so key, particularly at an early age.

That was vital to my experience, having been exposed to science as a young man by my grandmother and encouraged and nurtured.

Even if your parents aren't in the science field or your grandparents like mine were, you need to find an outlet for your child to at least see the exposure.

Because here's what I've found, is that there is a lot of untapped talent in our youth.

And once you expose them to the types of problems that are out there, they're really, really great at figuring out or trying to figure out new solutions.

They just need to be exposed.

And what delights my heart is a lot of the types of STEMM training programs I get to do.

For example, we have a program called Future Kings and Queens of STEMM here in the D.C. area where I get to work with kids aged 12 and up, from 12 to 18, 6th grade to 12th grade, and teach them the kind of stuff I do as a molecular biologist.

So I've been teaching the kids in my program how to look at DNA, how to work with DNA, and now how to edit DNA.

We actually are at the level of gene engineering with CRISPR gene editing.

So my kids learned that this year.

So watching these young, mostly minority males for the first time, getting engaged in a lab and then watching their minds just spark with new ideas is really exciting for me.

And it gives me a lot of hope for the future.

And it reinforces what I'm telling you is that if you expose them early, they go on to do great things.

And I'm proud to say our program has 100%, 100% graduation rate.

>> You know, people who watch police movies, crime movies, DNA always makes the determination of whether or not somebody is guilty or not.

This popular term DNA, but a lot of people don't really know what DNA is.

What is DNA?

>> Well, people know it as many different things.

A lot of people call it the god molecule.

I know it as deoxyribonucleic acid.

That's what it stands for.

And it is the chemical that makes us, us.

There are actually four bases of DNA -- adenine, thymine, guanine and cytosine, those A, T, C, and G and those pairings of bases and that sequence of pairings that make each of us unique.

It is a philosophical and a religious experience for me when I work with DNA, because I look at it as the substance that the creator chose to make our species and all other species on our planet.

And so that interconnectedness is amazing to me.

>> So you're a scientist, but you also sound like a theologian.

>> I am.

I'm a person of faith.

I'm a Baptist minister at Alfred Street Baptist Church here in northern Virginia.

I grew up in the church.

And for me, the two aren't antithetical.

Science draws me closer to God.

>> I teach a little course down at Duke, and the first class, I always say, "Look, there's only one race, and that's the human race."

Unfortunately, because of racism, because of white supremacy, there are all these myths about people's features, people's skin color.

Were you born privileged or unprivileged based on some physical characteristic?

How can science help overcome all these myths and stereotypes about race and about inferiority versus superiority?

Talk to me about that.

>> That's a great question.

And as a scientist, that has been my great hope.

Part of the reason I went into science was to is to search for truth.

And in our DNA lies the truth.

The truth is, we're way more similar than we are different.

If you look at any two humans, they're roughly 99.9% identical genetically.

That means 0.1% is -- genetic difference is what we view as the diversity of people in the world.

By way of comparison, our nearest primate relative, the chimpanzee -- Okay?

We're 98% genetically identical to a chimpanzee.

That means only 2% difference from a chimpanzee and a human genetically.

That makes us a different species.

99.9%.

Think about that.

Well, what does that mean?

We're all human.

You're absolutely right.

I love the way you said that, Dr. Chavis, because that's how I believe it.

We are one race, a human race, and what we call different genotypes within it.

So while we all share the majority of common characteristics, we have to breathe air.

We have to process energy.

We have to do all these things it means to be human.

The things that make us "look different" are very small.

Let me just make it -- put a finer point on it, okay?

There are about 22,000 genes that we know about and can measure in the human genome, right?

And that's growing every day.

We're still -- Scientists are learning about that.

But as far as the ones I can measure, let's say in my lab, right, if I took out your blood, took the DNA out of your blood, I can measure 22,000 genes.

Okay?

The genes that make us look different?

Probably less than 20.

Okay?

Think about it.

The gene for melanin.

And not even for melanin.

Right?

The gene that controls the level of melanin that you make relative to someone else.

>> For our audience, melanin is what gives you skin color.

>> Melanin is what gives us the nice brown tan that we experience.

Everyone has it.

Even people we call white have melanin.

They just have a lower level of it.

Okay, only when you're albino do you not express that protein.

Okay?

It's a protein that gives you pigment in your skin.

Okay.

Melanin.

Then you have several other genes for nose structure, facial structure, other things that make us look different.

Hair texture.

Small numbers, tiny mutations in those genes.

But the same genes.

>> Break down what is a genome?

>> That's a great question.

So, a genome is the sum total of DNA inside your cells.

Okay?

So each organism has a genome.

Whether you are human or whether you're a rabbit or a cat or a mouse, you have a unique genome that's unique to your species.

Now, our genome contains about 3.2 billion letters, which was sequenced back in 2000, almost 25 years ago.

That was a huge accomplishment for mankind.

>> Well, 25 years is not that long ago.

>> It wasn't.

I was around then too.

So what I'm saying is that -- those letters, though, for the first time, understanding from a single human what the sequence of those letters were was really important because it gave us a reference.

And when someone says you have a mutation, it's a relative term.

>> How did that breakthrough happen?

>> A lot of time, effort and energy by thousands of scientists, by government-sponsored research.

It took decades.

So the first human genome took over 20 years and over $3 billion to get that sequence, compared to today, I can do it in less than 24 hours for almost 200 bucks.

>> From billions of dollars down to hundreds of dollars.

>> Right, and from decades to 24 hours.

The amount of genetic sequencing we can generate per unit time has outpaced our ability with microchips, the amount of information on a microchip, Moore's law.

We're actually doing better than the microchip industry in biotechnology.

>> Well, look, it seems to me that science and unfortunately, you know, in America today, there's almost an anti-science mythology going on.

There are some people who still come up with these theories about the shape of your nose, the shape of your lips, the shape of your head as being indicative of your intelligence.

So while science is making this progress, we still have to be mindful that we need more people to be intelligent.

I tell people all the time the definition of racism is ignorance.

You know, we really don't know what we don't know.

And people like you help us to learn more constructively things that we did not know.

>> There's so much to discover.

And even in the past 25 years that we've made all of this progress, there's still a lot we don't know.

And that's what I'm passionate about, again, as a scientist, as someone who's always searching for knowledge and truth, particularly as it relates to my community.

I'm African-American, and you mentioned there are so few African-American scientists operating at the highest levels of science in our society.

That's a challenge for us because we need more people of diverse backgrounds engaging in the science and understanding unique contributions to each individual as part of the whole.

Right?

We need that.

And I think that the point that you're making about us needing to have more opportunities for kids, I love that point, because that needs to happen consistently for us to remain in front of the world as far as science and technology innovation.

>> Where do you see the study and research of DNA, of genomes heading?

What's -- What -- What does the future portend?

>> I think we're going to be able to be much more precise with the kind of medicine we practice.

I think in the next 20 years, we're going to get to the point where, before I give you that pill, I'm going to know something about your genome, your genetics that tells me what's the optimal dose of that pill to give you to be most effective.

And in fact, which pill family should I give you?

Which kind of drug should I give you?

Okay, so that's going to happen.

That precision medicine is going to happen.

And we're going to need to know as much as we can about mutations and sets of mutations in populations, in groups.

So if African-Americans don't participate in the research, we won't know African-American mutations to optimize their treatment for precision medicine.

So these are the kinds of things.

So I think you're going to have precision medicine, and then we're going to be able to actually cure genetic diseases.

We're going to be able to change the genetics in order to cure the disease.

>> Now, you used a word that vibrates either negatively or positively in the Black community.

Can you explain that mutation is not something necessarily negative?

>> Absolutely.

We get mutations all the time.

Our DNA has to get copied millions of times during our normal existence.

We have -- We have molecules.

Like -- Molecules in our cell that do that work.

They copy our DNA over and over, and then they repair it when they make a mistake.

Okay?

So you get mutations all the time.

Most of them don't amount to much.

They're not -- Let's say it's like getting punched in a spot that doesn't hurt you.

Sometimes you get punched in the spot that does hurt you.

And that's when the mutation becomes like cancer.

Mutation just means difference from one, you know, reference to the subject.

So in our case, in genetics, like I said, that draft of the human genome, it allows us to understand your mutations relative to the draft.

Okay?

And that's all.

I think this whole concept of supremacy of any race is crazy because no one race is greater than another.

We're humans that have different attributes based on where our ancestors geographically evolved, you know, more recently.

But we're all humans.

So this concept of supremacy is complete garbage.

And I'm hoping that science will, once and for all, kill it.

>> That would be a great gift, not only to America, but to the whole world, where we see each other for the oneness of our humanity, not the differences in our humanity.

>> It really hurts my heart to see that you still have these supremacist doctrines out there.

We see what happens when you do that.

I mean, Nazi Germany taught you everything you needed to know about a supremacist doctrine.

It's not good.

So let's just not do that.

Let's go more towards the doctrine of love and commonality as a -- as people.

>> Well, you know, again, in America, there's a rise in anti-Semitism.

In America, there's even a rise of racism.

We're hoping that science and people like you can help our nation continue to go forward.

Learn more about these subject matters.

Embrace the truth.

You know, we started out saying how important the truth is.

And of course, in the Bible it says the truth will set you free.

>> 100%.

>> But you got to get the truth.

>> That's right.

>> In order to be free.

If people wanted to find out more about DNA, genome or molecular biology, where would you recommend that they go?

>> There are a lot of good tools online.

I would go with our government's websites first.

So the NIH does a good job of putting out information.

>> NIH?

>> National Institutes of Health.

It's where our tax dollars go.

So the National Institutes of Health is part of the Department of Health and Human Services, and they fund a good bit of the medical research that goes on in this country.

So they do have some educational resources.

There are others out there.

And again, I think the challenge, though, is what I've seen and part of what organizations I work with are trying to do is doing what we're doing, making it plain for the lay population.

And I know this from talking about science with my other family members who weren't like my grandmother, who, you know, who didn't know science at length is, "What is all of this?"

So some of these basic questions because that's going to be at the core of why we should really care about it and why we should participate and how we view it as vital to our future, getting exposure to different things like I did.

You know, I was seven years old when I started playing around with cells.

Now, that was ahead of the curve, but I still didn't fully understand all that was going involved in them, and it took me the rest of my career to gain that knowledge.

But the seed was planted, and I think that's the important part, is like planting that seed of curiosity, scientific curiosity, in our children and letting their minds just go with it.

>> To dispel some of the disinformation, is it true the evolution of humanity got some of its original spark in Central Africa?

>> That's 100% true.

These are facts.

Human -- Our human species evolved out of sub-Saharan Africa.

>> So I know this is very controversial, but that means then we're all of African descent.

>> That's 100% true.

That's why it's so important for us to understand African DNA.

African-American DNA.

It's important for white people and all other peoples to understand founder population genetics.

And it's really a great tragedy in our field, I think, of genetics that less than 1% of all the DNA that's been studied has been of African origin.

That's something that I heard at a conference.

>> Less than 1%?

>> Yes, maybe 2%.

I mean, it's somewhere between 1% and 2%.

>> Is that because of clinical trials or just outreach to the medical community?

>> I think it's a variety of factors, but it's a real tragedy for the whole field because we need to increase our knowledge of African ancestry DNA, not decrease it because of that fact you pointed out.

Over 130,000 years ago, our first human hominid ancestors evolved out of sub-Saharan Africa.

So why would we not want to understand that founder population DNA?

In fact, I think scientists really do.

I think there's been other economic and other factors that -- and other things that have, you know, eroded trust in certain communities of African and African-Americans that have led to the lack of representation in our data sets.

But it's a big problem, one that the NIH All of Us program recognizes and is trying to really address.

That's our -- one -- our nation's big genetics program, is trying to address that by recruiting more people of color, particularly African descent, to participate in the program.

They recognize that scientifically, it's good for all of us if more Black and brown people are represented.

>> Tell us what your current research is doing and the programs that you are now involved in.

>> So, as the executive director of the Faith Based Genetic Research Institute, we're a nonprofit that works in the community, particularly with faith communities, to educate them about genetics and health.

And we've been working with the NIH All of Us program, their community -- Department of Community Outreach and Engagement to raise awareness.

>> And what is the name of that program?

>> It's called the NIH All of Us program.

>> All of Us program.

>> Right.

So it's an actual research study.

It started by -- It was started by President Obama.

He kicked it off in 2015 as the Precision Medicine Initiative.

And it was brilliant because he marshaled our federal resources to do a population genetic study to help us understand the genetic basis of human diseases.

So we're recruiting one million U.S. citizens, okay, and looking at other attributes of them, their disease states, their other unique conditions and their genetics to build that database that will help us as scientists understand which mutations lead to which diseases.

That's going to help us understand not only how to better treat those diseases, but how to better identify people with those diseases earlier so we can have a better outcome for them.

>> I don't want to make this political, but, you know, there is something called Project 2025 that calls for the dismantlement of NIH.

It calls for the dismantlement even of the Department of Education.

It calls for a retrenchment of investing in research and development.

What's your view on that?

>> I think that would be a catastrophic mistake, and it would take us back decades.

And the net result of that would be America losing its dominance in innovation, in our innovation, global innovation economy in these fields.

We have been the benefactors of a great society of innovation here in the United States.

I'm proud to be an American, as an African-American, as difficult as the experience of my people has been here.

I think what our country has shown us is that if you do have the initiative and you have the opportunity, you can do tremendous things.

If we start taking that opportunity away from people by dismantling the Department of Education, by taking away the NIH and all of that, we will struggle as a society and lose our dominance in the world.

>> Today, Dr. Cunningham, what gives you your greatest hope?

>> I think my greatest hope is the youth, our children.

I think that they will, as always, be our saving grace.

Um, I think there's unlimited potential among our youth if we expose them to science and technology and possibilities early.

That gives me my greatest source of hope.

I think also what I do see, even though you have some -- a lot of divisiveness here in the country -- I mean, I'm not terribly huge into politics, but I see the divisiveness and it gives me heartburn and indigestion as it does everybody.

You do have a lot of joy and hope that's starting to really rear its head again, and I hope that we lean more into that in society.

And I've seen that happen in our society, where you have a joyfulness and a hopefulness that we as Americans, when we come together and really recognize our commonalities and try to help each other, you know, literally love your neighbor as yourself and help each other out, we can do great things as a society.

So that gives me hope, because I think there are far more good people in this country than there are people that are bad.

>> Dr. Tshaka Cunningham, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> It was my pleasure, sir.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at thechavischronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo, the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through API's Energy Excellence program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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