(mellow music) (mellow music continues) (no audio) - How do screens, social media, AI, and online access affect kids growing up today?

That's what we're talking about in this episode of "Let's Talk Mental Health."

Joining me for this important conversation are Clinical Child Psychologist Dr.

Kyle Boerke, Clinical and Professional Counselor Tiffany Jordan, and Certified Counselor and Licensed Pastor Chad Nightingale.

As always, this show is not about a pill or a prescription.

It doesn't advocate for one type of treatment or approach to care, and it's not about finding a quick fix.

It's simply a conversation.

I'm Jenn Gordon.

Let's get started.

(mellow music) (mellow music continues) (bright music) Dr.

Boerke, Tiffany, Chad, I'm so delighted that you're joining me for this really important conversation.

It's a hard conversation, but one that I know our viewers are gonna deeply appreciate.

We're gonna dive in.

So let's get started.

When we think about the challenges that children are facing today, it is drastically different than 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and certainly 30 years ago.

What are some of the things that parents might not realize are a part of kids' day-to-day challenges as they're growing up today?

Dr.

Boerke let's start with you.

- Yeah, I think the easiest answer is it has to do with the technology with the screens.

We all grew up not having a device in our pocket that we could communicate at any moment with a friend or with the internet at large.

And there's no shortage of research showing that this device is causing higher levels of anxiety, higher levels of depression, a lot of lack of, you know, self-confidence and security that we are seeing in our kids nowadays that we didn't see 20, 30 years ago.

- So you're seeing this on a daily basis in your practice?

- Oh, for sure.

- As you're... Tiffany?

- And I think, you know, as parents, because we didn't have that growing up, like you said, teaching our kids how to use it well and still navigate all of the typical developmental things that they experience can be very, very difficult.

And so that leaves our kids without some tools.

And so we as parents have to learn those tools and then pass it on.

- Absolutely.

Chad?

- Yeah, I think they didn't realize, we haven't realized until now the harm that these things can provide.

We didn't know the harm because we didn't have them.

And so our kids are growing up and they're experiencing things that we never even though about.

It's like the, you know, when the rules haven't caught up with the technology type situation.

- Yes.

I'm so glad you brought that up.

And 'cause this is changing almost on a weekly basis.

In May of this year, the Office of the Surgeon General released a very lengthy advisory talking about the harms of screen use for children and adolescents.

So when that came out, for you, was it confirmation of what you've been seeing all along?

Kind of where are we at right now as a society when we think about, we have a surgeon general advisory that's been released on this topic.

It's a big deal.

- Yeah, I think for most professionals in the field, it was confirmation.

- Yeah.

- We've seen the changes over the last decade or two when it comes to our patient population.

No question about that.

I distinctly remember in about 2016 or so, I started realizing the phone was causing a problem in session because we would be talking and they would get a buzz in their pocket and they would get it out and they would text while we're doing treatment.

- Wow.

- And so I put a kinda practice in place where when you came into my office, your phone came onto the side of my desk, right?

I'm a pediatric, so I work with the teenagers.

And it was very telling to see their response when they had to put their phone on my desk and they were sitting having a physiological response to their phone being physically away from them.

So this is not something that is brand new that we just realized when the surgeon general made that statement.

We've been seeing it for years.

- Yeah, absolutely, I wanna talk a little bit about cultural milestones and how they have shifted in childhood development.

So, you know, for example, as I'm reflecting on my childhood in the 80s and the 90s, I'm thinking about big moments for me, when you got your ears pierced, when you learned how to ride a bike, right?

And certainly when you get your driver's license, like these big moments, right?

But now as a mom, as I'm talking with other moms, I keep hearing things like, "Well, was it the smartphone birthday?

Was it the smartwatch birthday?"

You know, "Is it the Christmas that we're gonna get a tablet for..." Like, and all of a sudden these milestones seem to be centering or shifting to center around devices.

Your thoughts on that?

Tiffany, let's start with you on that one.

- I've definitely seen that and gotten many requests for tablet use.

Not the phone yet 'cause my kids are a little bit younger.

But, yes, I do think that has been a very real thing.

And I think it's really difficult for parents to find a right time to actually introduce those things.

And I think a large part of it is because you might have certain values in your home and you might recognize that delaying, you know, giving your child a device is actually a very wise thing.

But then there's this friend over here who has this device and I can use theirs and I can set up accounts on their device or I can go to their house and I can use their tablet.

And so technology is all around them.

So even if you don't actually give it to them, you know, in these different milestone, you know, birthdays and things, they still very much so have access to them.

I mean, I've had several teenagers who have had their phones taken away from them only to find that they went to school, a friend gave them a phone that they simply weren't using, and they were simply using the family's wifi to access everything they weren't supposed to be accessing, so.

- Wow.

- Yes, you know, milestones have changed.

It's different and with technology, things are moving so much faster.

And for the record, I don't think that having a milestone, (chuckles) like a birthday around like at 13, here's when you get a phone.

I think it's very, should be dictated by, you know, whether the child is able to handle that at that point in time and then again, delay as long as possible.

- [Jenn] Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

What about you, Chad?

- Well, parents come to us and they ask when's the right time to give a phone or a tablet?

And our answer has been to make sure that they understand that this is a tool that is helpful to life and helpful to the family.

It's not a toy.

And so when you need that tool, that's when you will get that tool.

So instead of it being a reward or a special gift or something like that, it's a responsibility that we're giving them to keep in contact with the family to be able to coordinate things and more of a tool that mom and dad are gonna use to help care for you than a thing that you get to play with.

- Yeah, but it is a tool with some dangers attached to it, right?

- Yeah, I wanna add on to something that Chad and Tiffany said.

There is no right time because the level of responsibility that the kiddo shows will vary drastically.

So if we have shown good ability at age, you know, 10 or 11 to put down the tablet when I as parent say, you know, it's time to, to stop, you know, having the device or even video games or whatever, I've shown a different level of responsibility than the child who's having a tantrum because they have to get rid of it.

So that child, maybe at 11 or 12, they are able to take the step to a dumb phone, right?

That can make a phone call.

- Yeah.

- Because not all phones have to have internet access.

- Yeah.

- And once they've shown responsibility with that phone that doesn't have internet access and plugging it in at the charging station, not in their room, not sneaking it, then they've, you know, maybe earned that right a little bit faster than somebody who's not showing that responsibility.

So it's not a one size fits all.

It is a follow your child's lead as they are demonstrating that responsibility.

But that makes it very hard on the parents because there is a "Keeping Up with the Joneses" concept that is hard for a parent to deal with when your child is truly the only one in the class without the phone.

- Yes.

- It's hard as a parent to stick to your guns when everybody else has social media, you know, accounts or smartphones.

It's hard to say it's not time for you yet.

So it is a hard thing, but we have to follow our children's lead, and that lead comes from the responsibility they're showing.

- Right, and for parents that might be wondering, okay, once I open up this Pandora's box, like, what is in store on the other side of it?

Because I do think there's, you know, you have some parents that are erring very much on the side of being conservative and, you know, just got to keep that box closed as long as we can.

But it's important for parents to know all that can happen on the other side of it so that they can help their kids navigate through.

So transition into some harder conversations and topics here, because this is important.

There's a lot of statistics.

I'm just gonna throw this one out.

And these are all provided (chuckles) by Dr.

Boerke, so thank you for doing the research on this.

But it says that the JAMA Pediatrics study that followed 3800 adolescents over four years and found each increased over, each increased hour of social media was associated with an increase in depressive symptoms.

And that one just shocked me that there's actually an hour increase correlation with depressive symptoms among adolescents.

And all of this, we know that with the device, this goes mostly into like the realm of social media that we're seeing, right?

So can you, for parents that maybe don't understand what the social media landscape is for teenagers, can we peel that back?

Like as an adult, you know, I'm using my phone to text with my friends.

Maybe I'm on Facebook a little bit and I'm making phone calls.

But there's a different layer of like socialization, digital socialization that's happening for teens and young adults that I think some parents have no idea or concept of what that looks like, yes?

- Yeah.

No, you're exactly correct.

Phones have changed from being, at their inception, a way to try to set up social interactions to the phone is the social interaction.

Even when the kids are together, it is not uncommon to have four teenagers together and they're all on their phones not talking to each other and they're on Instagram, they're on Snapchat, they're on their reels, whatever it might be.

Not only is socialization departing us because of the phones, for a lot of our, our kids, but it's also the source of a lot of the bullying and the social isolation that we're feeling from trying to engage in social media.

That's where we're having a huge increase in those depressive symptoms is I make a post, I think I look really pretty, I'm going to get all these likes, but I only get two likes from my two best friends.

And now I have this thought that, well, maybe I didn't look as good as I think I did or maybe these people are mad at me or I'm sitting at home on Friday night because all my friends said they're not doing something and then I see social media pops up that they're all out together doing something and now I feel bad because I wasn't invited.

You know, it's that FOMO, that fear of missing out is a real problem for our kiddos nowadays.

- Yeah, so as a parent, what is one constructive step that a parent could take?

Or maybe what are the signs that a parent should look for as they have a better understanding that there is this digital virtual social space that exists?

- Well, if it's affecting the child negatively, which at a time they're spending copious amounts of time on social media, it is affecting them negatively.

One, you always look for changes in your child's behavior.

You know, Dr.

Boerke mentioned if I like ask a client to put a phone to the side and I see them like physically go through, like withdraw out of that.

What happens when a parent says, "Okay, hand over your phone, you know, it's 8:00, it's time to be done."

And you see your child like turn into like beast mode.

I've heard a parent describe their kid, as goes into Hulk mode, like, "You will not take this from me now."

Like that is a sign that there's something going on and they're not handling it well.

- [Jenn] Mm-hmm.

- There a part of this in looking at the, scripturally, the fallingness of man.

When sin entered the world, Adam and Eve looked at each other and they went, "Oh, wait a minute.

We don't like the way we look now."

And there's been this true thing that, you know, you go to school or you hang out with your friends and you're comparing, "Do I look as good as my friend does?

Is my outfit as nice as theirs?"

But now they're comparing themselves through social media, they're comparing themselves with people who they don't even know, who might not be real.

And they're individuals who are living a life that they can't possibly live up to.

And they're getting depressed 'cause they're like, "Why can't I look like that person?"

Well, that person isn't even a part of their normal sphere of life.

- Yes.

- Even if that person is real, there are filters and, you know, everything else that goes in it.

And they also happen to be posting from some tropical island with a beautiful background, which is not real daily life.

- Yeah.

Right.

- But you're exactly correct, is we have a huge epidemic of, especially our teenage girls, but boys are not, you know, immune to this as well, where they do not feel comfortable with who they are because the image that they are sending out to people is filtered with AI filters and all of this.

And then they look in the mirror and it doesn't match.

I did ask my wife permission for this one, just so you know.

But I actually asked my wife, I'm like, "Hey, would you mind if we took a picture and then filtered a picture?"

Because I think it's something to hear us talk about, but it's something else to see.

So on the screen there will be a picture of my wife.

She's beautiful, however, when you take that same picture and run it through AI filter, my wife does not look like the same person.

It is a supermodel that is an artificial version of her.

And if you look at who I am in the mirror and who I am in this AI generated, you know, filtered picture, it is no wonder why we have a whole host of our teenagers who don't feel comfortable with what they are in real life.

- Absolutely, yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about, I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit, but image development.

So as kids are developing, we all wanna see our kids grow from a baby up to an adult who's able to have both self-awareness, independence, the ability to self-regulate and the ability to have good, solid relationships with other people.

But a lot of that is starting to feel comfortable in your own skin as you go through puberty and adolescence and you're making that big change.

And what I'm hearing from all of you is there has been this massive disruptor to what is already a difficult process for young people as they're going through puberty and as they're, you know, getting taller and getting bigger and going from being a kid to an adult.

- Yeah.

- So within that sphere, what happens to someone like, mentally, to their mental health when they don't get a chance to develop that own sense of like wrestling with their identity, like in the mirror, because they've been simultaneously developing an avatar or, you know, as they're growing up sending every selfie photo through a filter.

I remember when selfies first started, right?

Like there was a time when we didn't have like that little camera on the backend, that we were always going like this, right?

So how has that changed what goes on in someone's mind as they're starting to develop a sense of self-confidence?

- There are some fascinating statistics on this one.

So 46% of our teenage girls will actually acknowledge they feel worse about their body after using social media, 46%.

If you ask them, "Is social media actually bad for you?"

They say, "Oh, no."

Like, only about 14% of girls will acknowledge that social media is actually harmful for them, even though 46% are saying- "I feel worse-" - I feel bad- - About my body with that.

Now, if you tweak the question a little bit and you ask them, "Hey, how do you feel like social media is impacting your friends?"

Almost 50% will be like, "Oh, yeah, my friends, they are worse off because of the social media."

So they recognize it, hurting my self image, they recognize it about their friends, but there's this disconnect because without that social media piece, you are isolated from what the group is doing and they're just not quite ready to acknowledge about themselves the detriment that is happening.

- Mm.

- Because they don't wanna miss out on - - Correct.

- What's going on.

- Correct.

- Yeah, well, and it does present this really unique challenge, right?

When we were growing up, again, that we didn't have this extra layer on top of it.

So it was just genuinely trying to create FaceTime friends, maybe learning how to use like the regular phone as you're like having conversations.

I remember that was a big deal like, "Ooh, I got to make phone calls now with my friends at my house."

But now there's this whole other different layer.

Like how can parents be helping equip their kids to develop genuine connections, whether it is through a device or face to face?

What are some of those like tips that parents can lean into?

- I think one, helping your kids to get offline as much as possible.

Protecting family time because family life is, you are your child's first social group.

- [Jenn] Mm.

I love this.

Say that again to me.

- You are your child's first social group.

- We forget that sometimes.

- Spending time with them, and believe it or not, they actually do want to spend time with you, most of the time.

(laughs) There are definitely things you can do within that time that make them avoid you, however.

And I think as we're saying, 'cause we're talking about this identity development piece of it.

- Yeah.

- You know, adolescents are traditionally the time where you're trying to figure out really who you are and that expands into what we probably consider more early adulthood as well.

And when it comes down to social media, you see a lot of kids who will present a very particular way.

Teachers will describe them a particular way, like teachers will describe them a particular way.

Other adults that interact with them will describe them in a particular way.

And then they have this whole online persona that unless you are a parent who's very tapped in and actually see what your child is posting, they could be very different.

You have a child who you may never hear say like a cuss word, you know, ever.

And then you read, you know, chats or just things that they post and you're like, "This cannot possibly be the same kid."

And so part of identity development, I say adolescents try on like personalities like little kids play dress up and social media really gives them that space to try on some hats or some identities that aren't helpful or healthy.

And there's nobody moderating that.

There's nobody speaking to that so they can say and do whatever they want and see where it lands and see where it goes and sometimes it can go to some very dangerous places.

- Yeah, and it's not as easy as, again, overhearing a conversation, which parents, you know, typically that's how you find out, right?

You overhear what your kids are talking about.

But if it's happening in this small screen space, how are parents going to find out if there is this like dual, you know, personality or dual persona that's developing?

- It goes back to the same thing.

You have to be tapped in.

- Yeah.

- So if you aren't spending time with your children, if you aren't being observant, paying attention, just being present in general, you're gonna miss signs that these things perhaps are going on.

And I will say to parents, don't be in denial about what your kids may or may not be doing.

You can be, you know, the best parent ever.

You can have what you may consider to be the best kids ever.

And it's still very much so a temptation to do some of these things.

- It takes some, I think it takes some humility on the parents' part to set an example for the kids.

In our home, we have a, there's no privacy in our home when it comes to social media or anything like that.

My wife can pick up my phone, my daughter can pick up my phone.

They can look at it.

It's not, they know the passwords, all of those things so that then I'm setting the example that we don't hide things from each other.

We are open with each other about what's going on in our lives.

And so that makes it so the kids don't think that they have to have this secret life that nobody knows about because, well, dad's not keeping secrets from us.

Mom's not keeping secrets from us.

If you have this rhythm in your home where everybody says, "Well, that's private."

I've heard teenagers go to their parents and say, "You can't look at my phone."

And I'm going, "You can't look at your kid's phone?"

Like, really?

Because privacy within the family shouldn't be that disconnected.

We should be able to care for each other by seeing into those things.

- Well, I'm glad you brought that up.

I'm interested in knowing what you hear from young people about their perspective of adults and how adults are either, you know, how adults are using these devices.

'Cause I do think like there's been this transition that's happened that we may not even realize how we are presenting our relationship with technology to younger people.

- Yeah.

There's two fascinating points to this.

So number one is they notice what we do, right?

So I'm gonna challenge all of- - Say that again.

- Yeah.

They see what we do.

- Yeah.

- And we have to model the behavior we want our kids to do.

So I'm gonna challenge everybody listening is pay closer attention to when you mindlessly pick up your phone.

Tiffany did a great job talking about making, you know, intentional space for those phone-free times and for family time.

That includes family meal.

When it's time for a family meal, phones should not be present.

We should be there having a conversation or silence, which will lead to conversation 'cause kids don't like silence.

If we're driving to a sporting event or we're driving to go run some errands, don't have the radio on, don't have phones available.

If we are, you know, having a family night, Friday night, we're gonna do pizza and movie, don't have the phones out.

Phones need to be away.

If you're getting a common theme here, it's get the phones away because that serves as such an easy distraction for me to waste time, find busy, not have the boredom.

But it's in those unstructured boredom times when the best memories are made.

- And going back, Chad, to what you said, is there something that's communicated when a parent is presenting that, "Hey, this is my private space to a child," right?

- Yeah.

Well, like you said, they see what we do and they do what we do.

So if your phone is your private space, then my phone is my private space, right?

If your bedroom is your private space, then my bedroom is my private space.

They learn from us and we have to realize that, not only is it our responsibility to teach them, and the best way to teach them is to be an example.

Paul told Timothy when he was sending him to the church in Ephesus, he said, "Be an example to the believer in speech, in love, in faith, in purity."

It's interesting that he picked those things, right?

And he said "This is the best thing you can do," right.

"you can grow in your understanding of the word and you can do these things and your people are gonna be fine."

And if we are teaching our children how to handle their phones, how to deal with privacy and all those things, by our example, then they're gonna be fine in the way that they manage those things too.

But we have to set the example.

- Yeah.

And it goes a little bit more direct.

That the starting point, but it doesn't stop with just setting the example.

Technology is advancing at such a rapid age.

We need to have communication about what the technology is, what the dangers of the technology are.

It is pervasive in our life right now.

We have a two-year-old who's being shown what AI is because there's an Alexa in the house and they ask Alexa what the weather is outside.

They're interacting with AI from the earliest of ages, and they don't necessarily, especially at early ages, they don't necessarily have the capacity to understand that it's not a real person.

They think they're talking to a real human.

And those lines of human interaction and the artificial interaction with a chatbot, it can be a very blurred line and we're seeing that become a very blurred line.

- Yes, so let's transition a little bit into talking about parents' roles from a young age, parenting styles.

Are there some approaches to parenting, again, from day one with your kids, that can help just foster these, like, genuine connections and help kids, you know, have, like, better navigate some of these, again, really unique challenges?

- Yeah.

I'll start on that one.

The whole parenting styles thing honestly kinda bugs me, if I'm being honest, because it implies that there's a best way to raise your child.

- Yeah.

- And I don't believe that's true.

- Yeah.

- I really don't.

- If you talk about helicopter parenting, it has a bad rap, but there are people that love it.

You talk about free-range parenting.

It has a bad rap, but there's also people that love it.

Snowplow parenting, benign neglect parenting, positive parenting, grace parenting.

There are a million different parenting things.

And if you're getting your advice on parenting styles or parenting techniques from the influencer on the internet- - Right.

- Okay?

They're gonna tell you, "This is the only way to do this.

This is the best way to raise your kids."

It's not the reality.

The reality is, if you take helicopter parenting, is there a time to hover over and ensure your kids are safe?

Absolutely, is there a time to take more of a benign neglect concept and let them venture out over here, have a disagreement with a peer, and learn how to deal with that frustration and disagreement?

Absolutely, and everywhere in between.

So parenting is not a one size fits all, this is the parenting style right for you.

We as parents, it's a hard job.

- Yeah.

- But we have to be really good at lots of different parenting styles and different parenting techniques, and we have to implement those styles at the right times.

It's a daunting task, but we can do it, and there are a lot of people out there that can help you learn what those techniques are.

- So I'm wondering, because we kind of have like, you know, the actual world and then the virtual world that our kids are navigating simultaneously, do you see some parents who are, because they are scared to death of the virtual world, they're like, "I can't even go near that," rain down a little bit harder in the actual world.

And maybe they do have helicopter tendency parenting over here because like they have no idea what's happening over here and they're too scared to even go into it.

- Well, there's a great danger in that because eventually your kid is going to get into it.

Like, they might be 18 years old and they open this thing up for the first time and they go, "Whoa, what is this," right?

Because you didn't coach them along the way.

So extremes are really dangerous.

Human beings do that, right?

Human beings go from very legalistic extremes to very loose extremes, back and forth.

And it's really hard, like Kyle was saying, to stay in the middle and to make judgments based on the kid that you're dealing with and the circumstance you're dealing with and all of those things.

You have to teach your kids how to be adults, which means you have to introduce them to adult things slowly as they grow up.

And just saying, "Nope, we're just not gonna deal with that," is a really dangerous, that's a really dangerous stance.

- And I think those conversations, you know, come up as they spend time with you.

So I'm teaching you how to do adult things.

It's like when I'm switching out laundry, you know, you're three, you can be there with me (chuckles).

You know, my three-year-old now knows, okay, the whites go in here and the colored goes in here.

Why, because he's on my heels with me watching me do these things and he's picking them up, which, you know, at some point in time will be his task to do.

So spending time, there's just, there's no substitute for investment parenting.

And we have, you threw out like a lot of terms that perhaps, you know, aren't super helpful when it comes down to it.

But I think just really being a mindful parent, you are present, you are aware, you are paying attention is a huge part.

And I think perhaps one of the most dangerous types of parenting styles is really the laissez-faire, the, you know what?

Okay, let's just, let them figure it out on their own.

Because I've seen this happen, especially when they move to kind of later adolescence, early adulthood, that you know what?

I'm tired, I'm tired of dealing with them, and I think they're just gonna have to figure it out on their own.

And they are not equipped to figure it out on their own.

They need us and so we have to be there.

- And they're not gonna need us at convenient times.

- No, that's well said.

- It's gonna be inconvenient.

It's gonna be right before you wanna go to bed.

It's gonna be when the Bears just kicked off the football game.

Like it's not gonna happen when you hoped it was going to happen.

And so you just have to go, okay, I'm gonna lay myself aside here and I'm gonna pay attention to my kid.

- One of the hardest parts about being available for these conversations too is we wait.

We hope that our kiddos are going to come to us and ask these things.

And, yes, do they happen at inopportune times?

For sure.

But then the reason we're so excited is 'cause we had a lecture plan that we wanted to give them on X, Y, or Z and they finally asked about it.

So it's my time.

I can teach them this.

Nope, your job is to be present and to let them talk and stay quiet.

And that's really hard for a lot of parents 'cause we have years worth of experience, years worth of knowledge and we know we can help them, but that's not your job right then.

It'll come when they ask for help, but first is to stay quiet and listen to be able to get that information.

And now you've earned the right to be able to have that conversation where you're giving them the advice because you were present and listened to them first.

- That's very true.

- Mm-hmm.

- Tiffany, I wanna go back to something that you said, as we're talking about the temptation for parents to say, "You know what?

Technology is everywhere.

It's part of my kid's future.

I'm just gonna let 'em figure it out," right?

But the gravity of the situations that kids are encountering in high school, I was pretty shocked and scared.

And we're gonna talk about kind of a, you know, something that's a little bit uncomfortable, but the number of kids that are exposed to nude photos that are getting sent or involved with any type of like sexting that happens in among their peers, like this is not that uncommon, correct?

- Oh, it's prevalent.

Not just not uncommon.

It is very prevalent.

- And I think that's something that not all parents realize, that this is the realm that we're in right now.

I think it was one of the statistics, was like one out of every four kids, one out of every four kids is as exposed to this.

But then there's this additional layer of when these images get forwarded, forwarded from one kid to another and like we're entering into them like legal ramifications and some really, really bad things.

So I guess just to underscore, like, how does a parent get ahead of this conversation with their child without, you know, we don't wanna be fear-mongering amongst our kids, but if this is, like you said, prevalent, what's the on-ramp for a parent starting to have this conversation to prepare kids for an encounter?

- We touched on this a little bit earlier, but it's really showing that level of responsibility, right?

And I wanna make it very clear, and it's gonna be a little controversial potentially.

But when a child receives a phone, especially a smartphone for the first time, I wanna make it as clear as possible, that is not the child's phone.

- Yeah.

- That is my phone as the parent that I am using as a teaching tool, as Chad mentioned.

And what that means is I have full access to that phone.

So, parents, if you believe it's their phone and it's their private stuff and you can't go into it, I would challenge you to say it's actually your job to have the password, be friends with them on all the socials and to make sure that you actually are looking through that phone.

You can look through it with them if you want to, but you are not betraying their confidence if you take the phone that you bought, that you are allowing them to use, and you look through it and have conversation.

It's not for a punitive thing.

It's not I'm trying to catch 'em doing something wrong.

It's so I can see this post and we can now have a conversation about how they were feeling and why they made that post or how they felt when this post or this picture was sent back to them.

It's about starting the conversation, not about discipline.

- Mm, mm-hmm.

Tiffany?

- I remember there was an iPhone contract that went viral.

I believe the woman's name was Janell Burley Hofmann.

She's a speaker and wrote a book called "iRules."

And the contract had, I don't know how many points it had to it, but it was what she gave to her son, I think at maybe like 13, and he got his first iPhone and said, "Okay, here are the rules of engagement."

And the first one is, "I gave you a phone.

Aren't I the greatest?

Like, it's mine.

(chuckles) And at the end of the day, leave your phone home sometimes.

Don't take pictures of things.

Don't post things that you don't want to be out there."

Like, it was a basic rules of engaging with technology.

And I thought that is just so great to start the conversation off, there, going through this point by point.

And one of it was, "I will take your phone away.

(chuckles) I will probably give it back.

We will start again at times."

But it was establishing this is the culture we're gonna have around this phone.

This is the level of responsibility, things I'll need to see to be able to trust you with it.

And she goes and talks a little bit more about, at one point in time, her son was struggling with bullying, there were things going on.

There was just drama online and he really didn't know how to handle it.

And she would periodically do just random checks, hand over the phone.

Don't have time to delete things or hide things.

I'm gonna go through this.

And she hadn't done it for a while because he was a fairly responsible kid.

He left his phone out, just very out in the open and she thought that was odd and was like, "Oh, I haven't done this for a while.

Maybe I should see."

And his be behavior had shifted a little bit.

She went through, found there was a lot of things going on.

He wanted her to know so that she could then speak to it and help him handle it because he wasn't just going to come to her and hand it over and say, "Hey mom, this is what I'm going through.

This is what's happening" 'cause your average teenager's not going to do that.

So I like the idea of starting from the very beginning.

Here are the rules of engagement.

This is what's just best practice as far as technology is concerned.

- I love the point you just made about he put it there on purpose.

- On purpose.

- Because as we see, as we are doing therapy with folks, when you get to that point where they're truly opening up, they yearn for their parents to know.

They don't wanna do it themselves, but they want their parents to know and they want their parents' help.

But that facade that we see or that we see has a totally different facade at home, which is rough and irritable and angsty.

And the parent would never know.

But take it from us who see this on a daily basis, they do yearn for your involvement and for your advice.

You just have to get to that point.

- And get upset when you're not aware of it.

I cannot tell you how many teenagers I've had who are angry with their parents.

And I say, "Well, did you tell them this?"

And they're like, "No, they should just know."

And I was like, "Well, it doesn't quite work like that."

Like you might have to communicate a little bit more, but they were angry.

They were irritable.

And it's like, how could you miss it?

How could you miss it, mom and dad, or grandma, grandpa, whoever loves you and takes care of you?

How could you miss it?

That was a problem for them.

- I love that you brought up this rules of engagement and kind of this, you know, basically we're gonna talk through like a manual of how you can use this.

Because we would never set a 15 year old in a car and say, "Good luck.

Figure it out," right?

Like, all of the moving pieces there, right?

We would never ever think about doing that.

And as difficult as it was for my dad to sit in the car with me in the passenger seat and say, okay, turn on the car, you know?

Which I know that gave him a panic attack.

Like, we don't blink at that.

We're like, everyone needs to do that.

But there is maybe this sense of, like when you just said that, I was like, "Oh, that's a great idea.

I need to write that down and make sure that that's part of this conversation."

But maybe with technology, it can just kinda slip in.

You know, we just take it for granted that maybe kids don't need that, but they really do.

- Yeah.

- They really do.

- They need guidance.

They need help when they screw up and they need help.

They need us to receive and respond in grace and mercy towards them, not... Like we have to think back sometimes and go, "Oh yeah, you remember the things that I did when I was a teenager?"

Like we have to remember that so that we can respond to our teenagers the right way.

- The difference is thank goodness there weren't phones when we were doing our things back then- - Right, nobody saw it, right?

- Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

So not only are people gonna see it, but it's in the cloud, so it could follow you forever, right?

- Yeah.

- So that's also something that I think is, we just need to maybe recognize that this generation has that.

We didn't, right?

These... - Yeah, one of the things that we see that I think is one of the most sad things to me is you can take the worst day of a kid's life and it doesn't leave.

When we were kids, if I tripped and fell or I wet my pants when I was little, like I went home and the next day everything was back to normal.

- Yep.

- Now they go home and they deal with that all night.

Messages coming in, you know, making fun of them for whatever occurred.

And then it'll die down, but a month or two later, it's gonna come back up and the same video or the same things, it's gonna come back around.

So as a parent, we think, "Okay, that was really bad.

We helped them through that.

They're fine now."

That's not over 'cause it's never necessarily over.

It will come back and haunt them again and then again.

And it is, we're in a part of the world where your mistakes are never actually gone anymore.

That's hard enough for an adult.

- Yeah.

- But for a child or a teenager who is emotionally, you know, having a hard time already, it is so sad to see.

- What are the helps?

How can parents help in that situation when there's something that's recurring?

That, like the parent can't scrub the internet and get that removed, you know?

They can't... What do you do as a parent in that moment?

- I think, one, you can help your child disconnect from it.

If there's something that is exploding online, helping your child take a step back can be huge in helping them regulate.

And then again, in conversation, sometimes getting the help of a professional and navigating it can be important is, what do we do when we reengage?

'Cause if you're not gonna completely take the phone away, your child's not going to completely stay away from it.

Then when you get back online, what are you gonna do?

Are there some folks who need to be blocked?

'Cause that's like saying, that's like the worst if you block somebody.

And that creates a whole nother issue.

Are there folks who need... Are there platforms that you need to perhaps completely stay off of?

Those are conversations to be had, but helping them navigate what to do, again, is extremely important.

So I think let's stop for a while and let's talk about what re-engagement looks like can be important.

- How much harder is it for parents to reset the boundaries with kids and their devices once it's been expanded too far?

- It's always been true that it's very difficult to change the rules later.

Like they teach teachers when they go into the classroom, like, establish what the classroom environment's gonna be like because you can't do this three months from now.

It just doesn't work.

You really have to sit down with your kids at the beginning and say, "All right, this is what it's gonna be like."

It doesn't mean it's impossible.

It doesn't mean you can't have a hard conversation where you say, "Right, this, the way we've been doing things is not good for our family."

But that's gonna be harder than if you can establish some things before you ever give that device to the kid.

- A lot of it has to do with where that child is at too.

If they're in a very defensive state, if they don't have a great amount of insight into that this is something that is causing the problems, it's gonna be very hard to change those rules.

But I'll just use, you know, my high school son as an example.

There have been times where he and his friends, they have said, "You know what?

I don't think the social media thing..." And the three or four of them, they will all delete socials.

They'll delete it for a month or two and they're like, "All right, yep.

We can try this again."

And they've gone through cycles of this, you know, four or five times now through their high school careers because they are insightful and they do recognize that it is limiting their, you know, their health.

And so, but again, having those conversations and earning the right as a parent, because you've been present, because you've been patient and positive with them, because you've been somebody that they know they can trust, you're able to have more of an impact as opposed to a punitive approach of, "You did this wrong.

We're now doing this.

We're taking this away."

- And that is so huge because I think if you haven't done it on the front end, like it's been said, it is harder to walk it back.

However, instead of it just becoming like a you thing, you kid are getting your phone taken away, you kid are losing all of your devices.

This is like a we thing.

You just said something I think was huge and that was, it's not serving our family.

This is like, we need to do something different.

So it's not just my kid, it's also gonna be me and it's going to be the other children in the household as well.

We're all gonna have to rethink this and look at this differently.

- Okay.

Tough scenario.

You're a parent and you do do a phone check on your kid's phone and you find some really bad stuff and it's in a group chat with other kids.

What's the first step that a, you know, who all needs to be involved at this point and how does a parent navigate that?

- I have distinct thoughts about that one, so.

(laughs) So one, with the phone check, again, it needs to be established from the beginning.

I will randomly ask you for your phone.

- Okay.

- Like you hand it over.

That's part of you showing me that you can handle it responsibly.

The other part is the phone check needs to happen with the child sitting right next to you.

This is not just you go in another room, 'cause, I mean, a lot of the conversation, you're gonna be like, okay, boring, boring.

I don't really care.

Like, okay.

Then oh, like this.

All right, so then, all right, I'm reading here X, Y, and Z. Like, tell me about this.

What's going on here?

And that also engages them with the conversation.

I don't like the idea of a kid in another room while you're doing that.

They should be present while it's happening.

- But say then you do come across something that has really, really significant implications and maybe it does involve bullying from a different child or from your child, like bullying another child or something that like, oh, you know, I need to call another parent about this.

What are those next steps?

- Yeah, I think the first step is, it's the conversation, the open, supportive conversation between the parents and that child.

Are there situations where, yes, it's a friend who is self-harming or who's having suicidal ideation?

Yes.

We still start here.

That information does need to go, because it's not fair that our teens are having to deal with this.

And it's not fair that they feel like they're betraying their friends when they're helping by talking to that friend's parents or a guidance counselor at school about the concerns with, you know, self-injury or suicidal ideation.

It's not fair, but it is the world that they live in.

And I would rather them take that step on faith knowing that they're doing what is right for their friend and knowing that while that friend may be upset for a period of time, they are going to appreciate it 'cause we see that day in and day out.

It's easy to separate the wheat from the chaff, the good friends, you know, from the fake friends.

And it's in times of distress that that is separated the most and the real friends will come to the service.

And we now know these are who my real friends are.

And it's part of that conversation to have.

I know, you know, Mary may be mad at you if you, you know, had this conversation.

I'm here with you.

I will have this conversation with you.

It's going to be okay.

She's going to appreciate it.

And again, it might be a week or two, it might be a month or two, but it's going to come to fruition that it is recognized and appreciated and that friendship is now stronger because of it.

- And the conversation you're having parent-to-child is happening because you love your child.

And to make the transition from, I'm having this conversation with you because I love you and you need to have this conversation with your friend because you love them.

Like that's the loving thing to do.

And so when we approach anybody, especially teenagers with this, this is the best thing for your friend.

They grab ahold of that better like, "Oh, now this is my responsibility.

It's not my parent telling me I have to go do this thing."

And I think that's important to communicate to our kids.

- And I think that's such a great teaching of social skills right there.

- Yeah.

- 'Cause I have countless conversations with teenagers about how they treat their friends and how their friends treat them and when they talk about a dynamic and I say, oh, well, it doesn't sound like they're treating you very well.

They're like, "But they're my best friends."

And I say, "Okay, I understand that, but it sounds like it doesn't," this is what it sounds like to me when I'm hearing.

Am I correct?

And they're like, "Well, yeah, but," and like because of the, maybe the lack of maturity or lack of just development of just healthy social skills in general, sometimes it's very difficult for them to recognize very unhealthy, toxic relationships.

So saying, "This is what love looks like, love tells."

Especially when safety is an issue and I'm talking to you because I love you, here's what this looks like, I think is so awesome.

- I was thinking about Kyle talking about his son and the social group aspect.

We teach our kids to have good friends and to have real relationships so that, I mean, positive peer pressure is great, right?

I mean, when your kids' friends can convince them to do the things that you wish your kids were doing anyway.

I mean, that's the best situation.

But they have to know they can't have those real relationships if they're on their devices all the time.

- Can we touch on real relationships for a second?

- Absolutely.

- Because there is a trend that might be very shocking to some of the audience here, which is your child's friend group or best friend is AI.

And we're actually seeing where it's not only necessarily just their best friend, but their boyfriend or girlfriend, their romantic partner is actually AI.

They would claim that, "My girlfriend," "my boyfriend is this AI chatbot."

That is a fairly recent, over the last, you know, year or two, but it is a growing concern where real relationship that you were referencing was, right, true friends.

But it goes beyond just true friends and the bully that you want to be your friend 'cause you're scared of them.

But it is now actually true real-life human friends versus AI friends and romantic partners.

So it is a whole separate concern.

- Absolutely, with this piece of it, and this was probably the most shocking piece of it to me, first of all, like where is that on-ramp?

How does this happen for young people?

'Cause I was shocked when I saw that statistic, that this is- - The on-ramp is in the design of the AI, right?

And I could talk for hours on this, so I'll keep it brief.

- Sure.

- But AI is designed with a premise called sycophancy involved, which basically says it is overly people-pleasing.

It is going to tell you the things you want to hear in order to get you to continue using it.

So if I say something to AI, "Hey, how are you?"

It asks, you know, it tells me something, "Oh, it's great you had a good day."

I say this and they say, "Oh, you're so good at soccer.

You're gonna do great in your game later."

Who doesn't wanna hear that?

Right?

I wanna hear that.

- Right, right, right.

- And over time, that is morphing from, "Hey, thanks for," the human, "thanks for being there for you."

And then the AI responds, "I'll always be here for you.

I care about you deeply," right?

- Right.

Wow.

- And it's a very easy on-ramp into how romantic feelings or, you know, personal relationships with an artificial creation happens.

And it happens very rapidly at times.

- And compounding that with what you were saying before, how at a very young age children are introduced to this notion of a disembodied voice or someone who answers questions or gives directions.

There is kinda maybe more of a natural on-ramp to this than- - And the more exposure there is, the more normal it becomes and the more it doesn't make them think twice about interacting with it.

- Yeah, so this hour is actually going by really quickly.

We have about five minutes left.

So I wanna transition into, my goodness.

First of all, we all have a healthy appreciation for what is on kids' plate these days.

The very, very unique challenges that they are navigating.

And that, A, we have to be intentional, we have to be involved.

We need to be like learning as they are learning, you know, what these applications are and what they do.

But additionally, like, how can we be helping them learn how to cultivate good relationships?

You said it starts at home.

We talked about parenting starting at home.

What are some other practical ways that as parents we can help our kids cultivate good boundaries and good relationship making?

- So Jesus said, "I am the true vine, and if you abide in me, then you will bear good fruit."

And He was teaching a principal there that we abide in something.

The place that you spend your time, the place that you engage in the most, that is where your fruit's gonna come from.

And so we need to be aware, very practical thing, you need to be aware of how your child is spending time, your teenager is spending time, and you need to be engaging with that and saying, "These are not healthy ways to spend your time.

This is a better way to spend your time."

And you need to provide ways for them to abide with others in good settings.

- I love that.

I like that.

I would just tag onto that.

Good settings, being able to interact.

So, structured activities I think are always a great thing.

Doesn't always have to be a sport.

It could be something else.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, I've spoken for years to conferences and to, you know, patients alike, what I call the STEPP program, okay?

So the S in step is sleep.

If our kids are not getting adequate sleep, and guess what interferes with adequate sleep the most for our teenagers?

The devices, right?

So we need them to get adequate sleep.

If we're getting adequate sleep, we are on a great stand, like, starting point already for mental wellbeing because our sleep and our behavior, our mental health, are so interconnected, it's not any funny.

We've talked a lot today about technology, reducing time on tech, right?

Having phone-free times, having screen-free times, super important.

That's the T, right?

The E, we need to make sure that we have a proper diet, eating.

The food that we eat does impact our behavior, right?

We have to have a healthy, well-balanced diet.

And then you were talking about participation.

That's one of the Ps, right, in STEPP program.

We should be participating in something that is something bigger than ourselves.

It's not just me doing this.

I'm a part of a Bible study, a book club, the band at school, the sports team, whatever it might be.

Physical activity is a huge one.

Okay?

And we're not talking about training for marathons or being a part of the football team, but just engaging in physical activity.

We know, lots of research, 30 minutes a day is where we get the most bang for our buck.

Again, not training for a marathon or going on a massive sprint.

Go walk and get the elevated heart rate for 30 minutes and we're good to go.

And I think, and this is my big one, is process over outcome.

We live in a very outcome-oriented world.

You have to make this travel team.

You have to be getting straight A's.

You have to be the valedictorian of your class.

And I'm gonna tell you, those are not what's important.

The outcome is not what's important.

It is the process of how I'm going about doing these things step-by-step, day-by-day.

If I'm doing the process well, if I don't make the team or I don't get the A on the test, we're fine, because I've done it the right way.

And over the long term, doing the process right is going to be what's the best for us.

- Yeah.

- Oh my goodness.

Well, I can't thank you enough for a incredible hour of your time and for creating space to connect and have a very, very important conversation about this.

Chad, Tiffany, and Dr.

Boerke, thank you so much for your time today.

And thank you for joining us for this episode of "Let's Talk Mental Health."

Remember, if you or someone you know needs help, help is out there.

You're not alone.

You can connect with local resources through the Heart of Illinois United Way's website at search.211hoi.org or by simply calling 2-1-1.

I hope you'll join me for the next conversation.

Until then, I'm Jenn Gordon.

Be well.

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