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Hey, thanks so much for joining us for another edition of Donnybrook.

Hope you had a great week.

Probably not as great a week as Chief Robert Tracy, but we'll explain why in just a moment.

But first, let's meet the panelists.

Wendy Weise has taken the week off, so we welcome Hiba Ahmad from St.

Louis Public Radio, where Hiba is the education reporter.

Thank you so much, Hiba, for joining us on this program.

Thank you for having me.

Hello to one of our founders back in January of 1987, Bill McClellan from the Post -Dispatch.

Also from the Post, great political columnist, Mr.

Joe Holleman.

And from the St.

Louis American, as always, we welcome Alvin Reid.

Bill, I say it was a good week for Chief Robert Tracy because when he came here in 2023, the city was paying him $180,000 a year, and over the weekend, his pay was boosted to $295,000.

Now, there's a caveat because in that first year, I think a private not-for-profit was paying him $100,000 or so.

But it's a substantial jump for Chief Tracy.

But he does have 42 years of law enforcement experience.

Don't you think he's worth every penny?

No.

Well, I mean, if we had unlimited money, but I think this is absurd.

We're St.

Louis, and if a guy can market himself and get a better job, great.

But this idea that we'll pay more than the chief in New York gets, more than the chief in Chicago, I mean, it's easy to be the big shot at the poker table if it's not your money.

You know, I'll say that and raise your fist.

I thought this was crazy.

When people talk about the police need more money, we generally mean the street police, not the chief.

So I thought this was a goofy thing.

Well, you mentioned the street police, and I found it interesting that it seemed like the St.

Louis Police Officers Association had no idea this was coming because their statement was one of just, like, they were outraged.

And I thought a specific line in it was that while we supported the state board, you know, takeover, we did not anticipate interference like this.

So it just, all of a sudden now, once again, we got these dividing lines and schisms in the St.

Louis region, and now the rank and file is man at the chief and man at the board, which they all support.

Too bad for them.

I mean, they wanted the state to take over the police, and they got what they wanted.

I don't feel sorry for them in the least.

Also, you know, who says that, you know, Chief Tracy's going to drop this other job or won't get another one, do nothing, consultant job, and be raking in another?

Well, he does a point of order.

He does work for UMSL for about $100 ,000 a year.

That's what I mean.

And he might, if UMSL drops him, he might get another one doing the same thing.

It's crazy, and in the old days, under the old boards, they weren't giving the chief, here's a six-figure raise because we love you.

Well, you know, crime is down.

I mean, he does have that, even though.

Yes, but, you know, crime was going down under Chief Hayden, and crime is going down all around the country and taking nothing away from Chief Tracy, but it isn't like crime is surging everywhere else.

I do think that the point about the fact that his salary is also linked because of the city charter, that also then increases the fire chief's salary, that is a bit of a hiccup.

And, of course, I think I had the privilege of speaking to Mayor Spencer over the weekend because I was on call and covering this story.

You know, I don't think that the police board is necessarily taking the full picture into account, right?

It's not just Chief Tracy's salary.

It's now the fire chief's salary as well.

So, I mean, and as we talk about a city that is low on funds, it's tough, right?

And I hear from, you know, constituents all the time who say, we don't understand the city leadership's priorities.

And that's, I think that's where people get confused, right?

Well, I will say, I think it's weird when an unelected, state-appointed board without responsibility for raising money is able to spend city money.

It just, it's not good government in my opinion.

Well, I mean, that's going back to the argument about the state board.

Should there be one or not?

Should we have it?

I guess where I'm at, when I have mixed emotions about something, I'll tend to default to the position of whatever union is representing the workers.

And the idea that the union is saying, okay, but you really picked a bad time.

We're trying to negotiate raises for the civilian employees here, and you just hand out $100 ,000.

I do think, however, that there are some things we don't know yet.

Where's Unsel in all this?

What happened to this consultant contract?

Was he not a good teacher?

Why was that going to end that made the board feel, and I think there's things we don't know about, everything that went on.

But let me ask you this, $295,000, it's exactly what a superintendent in Parkway or in Hazelwood makes, $295,000.

I don't think that's outrageous for a public servant.

I think a lot of members of the public don't believe that police are overpaid, period.

And that's going from the ranking file patrolman or patrolwoman all the way up.

It's not like, wow, those police officers get into this just to make an easy living.

Nobody thinks that, so it's not about the money they're making.

It's about the way this all came about.

Let me ask you, you talk about school superintendents.

Those are another group of people that I think are vastly overpaid.

The teachers should make more money, and the superintendents should make a little bit less.

And what we're doing to the police department now, it used to be the patrolman, the sergeant, the lieutenant, the major, and the chief, and now we're like a corporation.

The chief is way up there.

It's crazy.

Well, did you see the latest news today, breaking this afternoon, that the city is going to start paying guys and gals who are in the academy.

That's a good idea.

They'll get their money when they start studying.

Okay, and I don't necessarily have a problem with that, except you're getting paid, and then if you just decide I'm not going to be a police officer, do you have to give the money back?

There's some questions I had about that, but I don't necessarily oppose that.

Hip, I want to ask you about a story that you've been reporting on, Normandy schools.

And a state board is taking a look at this group, at the Normandy schools.

We've been looking at it for a long time, you know, but they're in financial peril.

I don't think that's not the exact term that the state used to describe that.

Yeah, the Department of Elementary and Secondary Education said it is a financially stressed school district.

And look, they make these annual evaluations every single year.

They bring it to the board to say, hey, these are the school districts that are really struggling.

Now, Normandy is one of four of over 500 school districts or LEAs that we have in the state, so it is a rare distinction in that way.

And it is a school district that's struggling within our region, and it's going out for two propositions on the ballot next month.

And now the question is, will those propositions help the district in the long term?

That's kind of up to voters to decide.

Of course, there are challenges there.

You know, Normandy is one of the lowest ranked school districts in the state.

It is set to lose its accreditation or could lose its accreditation as soon as next year.

So I think there are all these factors that are currently playing out right now.

I think a lot about the families, right, and the students who are being served or not served by the school district, and I'm curious to hear how they're thinking about this.

And it will be interesting to see how people vote on November 3rd.

Obviously, I don't live in Normandy, but I think if I was a family there, I would say, like, well, if I vote in favor of this increase in tax and the state takes over and I'm opposed to that, am I voting against myself?

And I would have that concern.

I think a state takeover of any school district solves nothing, and I think there's just too much emphasis on other things other than the education of the children, even at the state level.

The thing with Normandy is they made hideous hires.

Does that sound familiar?

Like the city.

You know, that superintendent that they had to outstep?

He was good.

His name was Marcus Robinson, and the only reason they booted him is because he hadn't yet completed his Ph.D., which he has subsequently finished from Columbia University in New York.

Okay, my understanding, it may have been a little bit more than that.

Yeah, well, I like the guy.

Okay, and that may be solved.

That may be great.

But I think Normandy has got problems that, along with many other urban school districts, have.

So here's what they need to do, Elvin.

They need to send those children to other schools where they have better resources, where the chairs in the theater aren't crumbling, where there isn't mold in the basement, where the outcomes are better, so those kids have a chance at a better education.

What district?

Well, DESE is going to have to tell districts, like it did about 20 years ago, you're going to have a financial incentive to take these students, and it's going to be a carrot and stick approach for you.

Not to do that denies them a future.

We know that education is the key in this society, and if those kids don't have it, right now 7% are proficient in math, 12% in English.

You can't have that.

And that's why the original question being do you think the taxes will be a savior for it.

I don't think any struggling district, to use the phrase struggling district, gets saved by money alone.

I think there are other problems that got you there than just, oh, we didn't have enough cash.

There is usually other problems.

You talk about problem with the superintendent.

Two years ago, three years ago, the Normandy school system and the St.

Louis public schools got dinged by the state for not turning their audits in on time.

So there were management problems.

So the idea that a tax increase is going to make all of that go away, I don't think it can happen, and I think we'll find out exactly what district people feel.

Great thing about elections, here's their chance to say what they think about their district, and the results of that balloting will tell us all we need to know.

Yeah, these problems are so complex and cultural and economic.

You know, you can send kids to other schools, Charlie, and that will help some kids, but the kids that are left behind will probably be in worse shape when you're spending money on the transportation that could go to education.

And, I mean, if there were a solution, I think someone would have already suggested it.

Like one of the bond measures is just it's a bond measure, right?

And school districts go for bond measures on a regular basis.

We've got to keep up our house, right?

Like they have to take care of their buildings so that they can send their kids to respectable facilities, educate their kids in good schools.

And I will say Normandy has some very beautiful schools.

I spend time in them, and I'll also say nothing has been set in stone, right?

Like Normandy could, the state could still decide to keep Normandy as a district.

So if the district remains and they maybe add additional pressures to be like you've got to increase academic performance, they're going to need the money to be able to educate those children.

You know, people are talking about the inequality of schools in France.

I mean, here in the St.

Louis area, if not throughout the United States, just think about it.

What's the tax base for Pagedale, which is part of the Normandy School District?

It's not much.

But then you go to Clayton where they have five Fortune 500 companies.

Well, they'll have four when Olin moves out.

Plus they have Enterprise, and that property benefits the Clayton schools, and people wonder why they have a surplus in the Clayton schools.

So, hey, let's move on to another topic.

Starting with Alvin, I want to ask you about Prop B, which voters will see in the city of St.

Louis this November.

Prop B would be a half-cent sales tax to fund services for daycare, teachers, daycare facilities, and then money for tuition so that parents could afford preschool.

What do you think?

Well, you know, I'm like him as the education reporter.

I'm the education guy, you know.

Like I said, Bob's a teacher.

Grandfather's a teacher.

Daughter's a teacher.

Love education.

Not in love with Prop B because I just don't trust the Board of Aldermen and City Hall to distribute this money in a fashion that actually ends up helping these kids.

Now, I know the importance of preschool, but I also know the importance of management, and I just don't think that the city is up to that right now, so I would be hesitant to vote for it.

I really would.

I find it amazing.

As I remember, it was always, but sales tax are regressive.

We don't want sales tax.

Now everybody seems to want to increase the city's sales tax.

What happened here?

Is it that they don't think they can get a property tax term?

I mean, why are they going for this?

I'm a city resident.

My feeling would be that it's not going to pass in this city, and most people argue against sales taxes.

So is it okay in some times and other times it's not?

Or is it regressive all the time?

Well, I mean, I don't like them either, but to answer your question, you know, that's like anything else.

Well, I can see this one.

I can't see that one.

I tie this in with Proposition S in the county.

Helping the old people sounds good, and in the city there's Prop A, helping the young people who need help a great deal.

But I'm leery about Prop A because where is the money going to go?

And on Prop S, I think young people need the money more than the senior citizens.

I don't know.

I just think that, look, we have a big problem in the city, which is that we have population decline.

We know that in order for the future of the city, we need families, right?

We need people to stay.

And one of the key components of that is providing early education, daycare facilities so people can go to work, right?

They need their kids to be in the safe, educated space.

And we have a shortage of upwards of 20,000 seats in our region for those kids.

Something has to be addressed.

And I also think that the city is coming in to fill a gap that is left by some of the changes in the state policies around child care subsidies too.

So I don't know.

I think if we're thinking long term about solving a bigger problem of trying to keep folks in the city, folks like myself, I'm 30 years old, I'm thinking about family planning and whether or not I have spaces to send my kids, right, in the future.

Theoretically, I agree with that.

But I also agree with Bill.

When you have a mistrust of how government takes your money and spends it, I think you're usually more right than wrong to not trust them.

And I think, as Alvin mentioned, do I trust these people to be good stewards of this money?

I don't have a lot of evidence so far that they've been, so why should I give them more now based on that, well, that's a good theory.

And I agree with you.

We do need data.

Especially it's a little nebulous, I mean, exactly how it's going to work.

Well, because it ends up with a bunch of politicians going, trust us, we'll do good stuff with this money.

And people are past that.

But you're right about how necessary it is to do something for the kids.

The Regional Arts Commission was just blasted because it was spending money in excess of its 15% fee.

You're supposed to not spend more than 15 % of your operating expenses on management or something.

So this, according to Blythe Bernard's piece in the Post-Dispatch, they have no limit on expenses for the organization that's going to dole out this money.

And I think also after the St.

Louis Development Corporation mishandled money, was giving money to companies or homes that were not even in St.

Louis or didn't exist.

And then after the ARPA money, the COVID money went to people like Connie Bobo, Tony Weaver, Banjo Papula, who are all now at the Graybar Motel because of fraud.

I don't see people... And I think that's what I was saying, Charlie, really.

If you start running the laundry list of every time you gave government money, what did they do with it?

So at some point in time, you quit hitting your thumb with that hammer and say, you know what, I'm going to vote against it.

And I think that's what a lot of... Well, maybe if it was planned out a little more carefully.

Well, that's all I'm saying.

So if I do start a preschool and I say my preschool is going to have six students in it compared to the one that has 16 and I get the same amount of money, well, you know, like, we'll do a better job or the teachers will be making more money or how's this all going to work?

I'm not going to vote for anything where, honestly, there's no plan other than, hey, we're going to create this fund.

So I'm not down with that.

But Hib is saying if you don't do it, then you're not going to get the young people because they'll go to Maplewood.

My daughter is 27, and she and her husband live in the city.

She teaches at a charter school in the city facing the same problem.

I won't say that, you know, like, sweetie, when you have a kid, you've got to move, but, you know.

I think I read in, like, the STLPR's reporter, Rachel Lipman's reporting on this, is that the average cost of child care right now is $31,000 a year.

That's, like, half my salary.

So there needs to be some sort of solution going forward if we want to keep families in this city.

Well put.

Joe, I want to ask you about flak cameras.

Apparently, flak cameras, surveillance cameras, were used three times in the last week to capture suspects.

One, when some guy burned down a massage parlor in Cahokia Heights.

Another time when a man escaped from the city jail.

And the third time was when a man was suspected of killing a young girl, Alyssa Wilson, on Highway I-170.

Police were quick to point out, hey, surveillance cameras were the key here.

Do you think these cameras, which were so unlovable two weeks ago, are going to come back into favor?

Well, I think at least what we're doing is having the discussion where both sides are weighing in.

Because I never thought that flak cameras were all evil.

I am inherently opposed to the government recording all of our information and invading our privacy.

That's not to say that some things they don't do have good uses.

So now on the one side started saying, as you said, flak cameras are evil.

So few things are just evil.

They're mixed bags.

They're double-edged swords.

And I think now what police are doing, and I had stories where the police didn't emphasize it, but I could tell by the police report that a suspect was apprehended because of what was followed by flak cameras.

I didn't include it in my story.

The word flak camera was not something.

It was just like police determined that so -and-so went here.

Now police and law enforcement agencies are finding that, hey, we need to defend these things and to show that, okay, you have your concerns.

They also have some valid uses.

So I think it's part of an ongoing battle, if you will, for hearts and minds.

But I think it's let's decide.

And it also depends on how scared you are by government.

As AI gets bigger and government becomes more and more all-knowing, it's a frightening thought that they can track you.

I think I just gave into it a long time ago, and now the government knows where I spend money and where I'm going.

It was years ago.

It was back in the 90s.

I was in New York, and another guy went out for drinks.

I got back to Washington, D.C.

And got a call and said, like, Mr.

Reed, did you buy some stereo equipment when you were in New York?

And I said, I did not.

He said, okay, I think somebody probably got your number or wherever you were at.

We'll take care of it.

Now this was back in the 90s, and I didn't freak out or anything.

I knew that they knew, but, man, they knew that even I probably didn't purchase that.

The bizarre part of that story was in the World Trade Center.

So I've gotten over that a long time ago.

And the fact that I stood with them.

I said, you cannot just get rid of these things because some people have taken advantage in St.

Charles and other places.

They do good, and they did great over this last week in the St.

Louis area.

So I have to stand with them.

I think the bigger concern, though, is the relationship between flock cameras and the federal government in the sense of how they're being used for immigration enforcement.

We know that a lot of the ways in which immigrants, many of which who do have legal status here in this country, are being stopped is through police stops, like traffic stops.

And a lot of that is also linked to this flock camera usage.

So I think that there are some real concerns about how these cameras are being used.

I think in my observation, I think cameras, when there's these big things happening in our country and our communities, people look for symbols.

And I think the flock camera kind of became a bit of a symbol.

It's a tangible thing that people feel like they can go after.

They can tear down a flock camera, or they can go to a city council meeting and say, we don't want you to sign this agreement with this company or our police department to sign this agreement.

That's a tangible thing people can address when they see all these kind of major immigration raids and things that feel out of their control.

I was going to say, I think if you would ask the American public, how do you feel about license plate readers, it would be a lower percentage of dissatisfaction than if you say flock cameras, because I think you're right, that people got that term, like data center.

Like, I hate them all.

And I'm like, wait a minute, hold it.

So I think the term flock camera just sets people off.

Naive, but I agree with you.

However, I also, me personally, I don't want ICE to have access to them, but I wish we had flock cameras in the Tucson neighborhood of Savannah Guthrie's mom.

Well, when you see that I-70 case solved only because they had cameras.

And the people that perpetrated the crime are just... And they'd have killed again.

And you think, wow, this camera is great.

Well, and I think that's the good part about having that discussion and they're having hearings is that you take in both sides of those and say what kind of restrictions can be placed.

I have come to grips with the fact that the government's going to watch me, but I think we should fight it at every possible chance we can.

On to Hibba for our last topic.

Hibba, this week a guy actually escaped from the St.

Louis City Jail.

Like John McClain in the movie Die Hard, he went through the ceiling, and he got out.

You've been doing some reporting, your station has, on the conditions of that jail, and we didn't think that it was clubbed med, but it's a lot worse than we thought, is it not?

Yeah, no, the conditions inside the city jail have obviously, I think it's been well known that they are subpar by any means.

I mean, dozens and dozens of people have died while staying at that jail, many of which died from just not having their medical conditions like diabetes addressed while they were there.

So, I mean, when we think about the city jail and especially with the escapee happening, I mean, the first question that came to mind was were there enough staff, right?

Is this a staffing issue that he slipped out this way?

And then I know that there was a discrepancy, for example, where city police did show up, but they weren't able to review footage for at least two hours later.

So we still have a lot of questions to ask towards the Department of Public Safety, which the Criminal Justice Center sits under, but I mean, yes, I think families of those who have people inside the city jail have said something needs to get better because the city jail is there, right?

This is a facility that exists in the city.

I don't know if that's going to close, but it's definitely, I think, there needs to be issues around staffing, making sure people are trained properly, that the proper facilities are there to care for these people who are, in fact, incarcerated there.

One-minute warning.

Just, you know, as horrible as the jail is, nobody should just walk out of it and then go strolling down Market Street.

Just like the tornado siren, there should be a little red button where, like, escape, God, inmate.

And you make a perimeter.

You know, old guy was just walking down the street on Market Street.

Where are the police?

Where is the response?

This whole thing, I got a lot of questions.

And they start at the jail, they go to the police, and, like I said, thank God some cameras captured him.

Not captured him, but caught him because he's in Afton, and it was the county mechanisms that actually caught him.

Scale of 1 to 10.

10 being really in favor of it.

How much do St.

Louisans want to spend a half a billion dollars on a new jail?

One.

Oh, want to?

Zero?

One?

Do they want to?

Do they have to?

Will they have to?

Let's go to the old mailbag, shall we?

We heard this week from Sue Tebb, who's a professor at St.

Louis University School of Social Work.

I was so disappointed in each panel member because I realized none of them had done their homework on Proposition S. Our county is in the minority of Missouri counties for not having this funding available to vetted non-profit resources serving our older, venerable citizens who want to safely remain in their homes.

Vote yes on Prop S. Thank you, professor.

As a Kirkwood resident, I am much less concerned about music at Billy G's than deafening motorcycles, cars, and trucks.

Enforce Decibel laws or pass common sense legislation and enforce it.

That from Ken Nicklaus of Kirkwood.

We also heard from Matt Carroll of St.

Louis who wrote, Charlie was spot on about our state-of-the-art LLCs owing too much money, rather, state LLCs owning too much property in St.

Louis between the Millennium Hotel falling apart for years or moldy apartments.

These companies do not appreciate the responsibility of property management.

Thank you, Matt.

You can write us, Kerov9PBS63108.

Don't forget those emails.

Donnybrook at 9PBS.org on social media.

It's hashtag DonnybrookSTL.

We also hope you listen to us wherever you are on your favorite podcast source.

And don't forget Last Call.

It's on the Donnybrook YouTube channel.

This week we'll talk about the Battle Hawks are not happy with the CVC over the schedule they have for 2027 and beyond.

Thanks to Hiba Ahmed for joining us today from St.

Louis Public Radio.

Hiba, it was great to have you on the program.

Thank you for having me.

And it was great to have you as well.

Don't forget, Last Call.

Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.

Thank you.