(guitar-driven rock music) ♪ Hey ♪ ♪ Hey ♪ ♪ Hey ♪ - Welcome to "A Shot of Ag."

I'm your host, Rob Sharkey.

I'm a fifth-generation farmer from just outside of Bradford, Illinois.

I had a podcast, which led into an XM show, which led into a national television show, which led to me being here today.

But today is not about me.

Today is about Roy Sorce.

How are you doing, Roy?

- Great today, thank you, Rob.

(Rob sighing) - What are we talking about today?

- We're talking about Asian carp today.

- You don't say.

(both laughing) Look at this, you brought this fish in.

This is from just like literally outside the studio.

- Outside the studio.

Yes, this was caught yesterday by one of our commercial fishermen from the Midwest Fish Co-op.

- Okay, and this is a?

- [Roy] This is a silver carp, a silver Asian carp.

The ones that you see jump out of the water when you drive your boat near.

- Okay.

All right.

Let's start from the beginning on why we're sitting here talking over a fish.

It's a beautiful fish, by the way.

You did not catch this.

- I did not catch this, no.

- Well, I caught it.

- Yes, you did.

We'll say you did.

You can take credit.

(both laughing) I personally did not catch that fish.

- You are the owner of Sorce Freshwater.

- Yes.

- Okay, but before we talk about that, let's go back.

Let's get the history of Sorce Enterprises, and your dad, and the history of working in Peoria.

- Sure, I appreciate that.

My father started the company, purchased the company of Sorce Enterprises back in 1971.

We transitioned from school and janitorial supplies into food and paper, and then eventually frozen and fresh products.

So for 50 years we provide the Peoria area, along with eight surrounding states with food products from our facility.

Last year we decided to, or I decided to, actually, tackle the Asian carp problem.

And the Asian carp problem, we're saying, "Tackle the problem at the source."

- Okay.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Let's go back.

Because you're already confuses me because you go from janitorial supplies, to frozen food, to Asian carp.

Now, at what point did you get involved in the business?

Was that when you were doing the frozen food?

- Yes.

Back in 1985, about 35, 36 years ago after I graduated college, I came out to back home to work with my father in the business for many years.

And we worked very well together, had a very successful business, lots of employees, and things were very good.

We were supported by the community, by the state, and we enjoyed a very good business relationship.

- [Rob] Yeah.

- Yes.

- The pivot to this, I know it's still food, but it seems like such a big pivot to go from frozen food to, I don't mean to be mean by this, right?

But to go something that is kind of been like a Peoria joke is these stupid jumping fish.

I mean, tell me the process.

When did you first get a whiff of that you wanted to get into something like this?

- It was January, February of last year, 2020.

We were approached by the city of East Peoria to ask us if we would put a ice machine in our facility to help the commercial fishing industry.

Well, my business and curious nature thought, "Well, let's look into this a little bit closer."

So I contacted commercial fishermen and had them visit our facility.

And they said, "You have a great facility "for the Asian carp program.

"Would you be interested in doing something "along those lines?"

And I thought, "Well, let me learn more."

So as I researched and studied more, I thought, "Well, this is a very good problem to tackle."

Number one, it creates jobs.

Number two, it creates a protein-rich, good-tasting, healthy food source for people.

And it's great for the environment.

So at that point I actually brought my employees into my office and I said, "I'm looking to make a transition.

"Will you support me on this?"

And my employees said, "Sure."

(laughing) - Okay, I'm trying to put myself in your employees' shoes because, again, these are, they're carp, right?

And you said something there that I just let go.

But when you said it I'm like, "Okay."

You said good tasting.

- Yes.

- I've never eaten one.

I don't know much about them, but when they came in the area, and they were so prolific, and they're jumping up, but everybody said, "You can't eat them."

Why?

- It's basically because of their name.

Carp is a four-letter word.

- [Rob] So's the Cubs.

- Exactly.

But would you eat slime head?

- No.

- Okay, well, you currently do.

That's orange roughy.

- Really?

- Orange roughy was original name was slime head.

And because of a marketing campaign, they said, "No one's gonna eat this fish."

They decided that if we rename this fish, it's a good-tasting, healthy fish, just like Asian carp.

Well, Asian carp, because of their name has been categorized with your bottom-feeding fish.

- The carp that we had before they came.

- Yes, the Buffalo and the common carp, which, if you've noticed on this fish, his mouth is set up to filter feed.

They are strictly a vegetarian, whereas carp have that vacuum cleaner-type mouth on them and they eat off the bottom.

These are strictly vegetarian, so they're a healthy, very nutritious whitefish.

- The old carp though, there was something you had to take out, a vein or something?

- Correct.

- This one, you cook it up like a regular fish?

It's okay?

- You can cook it up like a regular fish.

It's perfectly fine.

You do want to clean it, obviously, but the difference is that this is a very bony fish.

So most people, especially in the United States, are used to just putting that fish in their mouth.

This fish you have to be careful on how you eat it if you filet it.

So we found different ways to process it working with different universities, UC Davis being one.

They are the largest aquaculture school in the country.

And they've helped us develop some products they're working on still, in their aquaculture department.

- [Rob] They don't have these out there, do they?

- They have them out there as samples.

I've sent them out there, and they have fish out there.

They aquaculture out there these similar fish.

- Gotcha.

- That way they can utilize them in their programs to create a protein source, or other uses for these fish.

When we harvest these fish, or the fishermen do, we found available markets for every single piece of this fish.

That is a zero-waste product.

The protein is for human consumption, the heads can be used for bait, the skins and scales can be used for different products.

There's nothing that goes to waste on this fish.

- Again, this is like the first I'm learning.

I always heard when you saw those giant john boats going down the road, and they're teeming.

I mean, they've got nets holding the fish in.

I always heard those were just going to some factory, they turn them into fertilizer, and they get spread on a field.

You're saying, though, that is it changed?

Is it because of what you're doing now?

They're getting the protein out of there so people can eat it?

- That's what happens with our product.

Right now we take the protein out.

The leftover products, if we don't have a market for them, then we'll go to the fertilizer plant.

The reason they went to fertilizer is people did not understand the valuable protein source that this fish provides.

In Europe and Asia, this is their hamburger.

This is what they use in place of cows, and things like that because it's readily available.

- Why do you think it got that reputation?

I know it's a carp, but I mean, it was like, you don't touch these things.

You can't eat them.

They're like mergansers of the sky.

I mean, they're horrible.

But I remember watching the guy that does bizarre foods, and he had a show.

They were down in St. Louis, and he's like, "This is one of the best tasting fish you'll ever have."

It's just crazy how it's almost like there was a campaign against eating them.

- There was.

And it boiled down to they were so prolific, and they're such an invasive-type species, they just wanted to get rid of them.

So as opposed to trying to find an alternative use for these fish, they just said, "Let's put them on the invasive species list, "just wipe them out."

Well, that didn't happen.

They're very prolific.

And they're going to keep spreading.

They're going to keep multiplying unless we do something about it.

The best option, quite honestly, is to one, find a viable market to put these fish into, which can be food banks that we currently service.

It can be schools, universities who have tried it before.

It can be the Department of Correction systems.

We've actually had different school systems try this product.

Once this product has been renamed or rebranded, then people will understand that let's try this.

We've had people try this product, unbeknownst to them, and they go, "Wow, this is great.

"What is it?"

And we tell them like, "Oh, I wouldn't have expected that."

And so they're sold.

But it's an educational process, and a marketing-type process.

- With it being so bony, are you gonna see the filets in the restaurant, or is this something that has to be a little more processed?

- You have two choices.

You can, actually three choices with this fish.

You can make a strip out of this.

In other words, you can take certain parts of it that do not have bones in it which could be fried up, or cooked, or baked as a strip.

You can then take the other product and serve it as a filet, as a bone-in filet.

And you have to pick around those bones.

And there are fish you do that with now that you eat, but not as bony as this is, or you take it and you grind it up, and you mince this product into a hamburger-type consistency.

And you'll see that we've made several different items with this, from chili to fish tacos, to dumplings.

There's a limitless supply of recipes for this product because whatever you season it with is what it tastes like.

- Oh, really?

- Yes.

- Okay, you ever go to like those fish fries, at like the Lions, or whatever, put on?

- Yes.

- They have the smelt.

You ever looked at those?

I mean, people are eating those and they like, they're in a line.

It's a fish fry for a piece of smelt.

I don't know why they wouldn't eat this thing.

- It's just perception.

It's just marketing and perception, education of the public.

- [Rob] It's a big fish.

- It is.

That fish there was harvested, like you said, right outside your door.

The average size of this pool is about that size fish.

The fish north of here are two to three times bigger than that.

- Two to three times bigger than this?

- Yes.

And if you go south or to the Mississippi River, they're four to five times bigger than that fish.

- [Rob] Oh man.

- [Roy] For an average size.

- [Rob] That's when they get, they could start taking people down.

- [Roy] Right, exactly.

- [Rob] Four to eight, four to five times that size is even hard to imagine.

- It is, it is.

- PBS'd have to give me a bigger desk.

- Exactly.

(laughing) We actually had a bigger fish, but when you said your desk was this size, we decided to bring that size fish.

- You said in this pool.

You're talking like the Peoria area?

- The Peoria area pool, which is they call it Peoria Lake.

But the fishermen fish from the Bartonville Dam to north, probably Lake and Henry area.

They can fish farther, but these fish congregate here.

It is an ideal breeding ground for them.

It's the right water temperature, it's the right depth, and it's also the right amount of current.

So they move here from other bodies of water, and this is where they like to spawn.

- I don't want these things in my river, but actually knowing that the Mississippi has bigger ones, it ticks me off.

- There you (laughing).

- I think we should have the big ones - We should have the biggest ones.

They used to be bigger.

- [Rob] These things are like rabbits though, right?

- Yes, they are.

These fish can produce up to 2 million eggs per year per female, so just do the numbers.

It's just astronomical.

And if you see the map of where these fish have started from and to where they are now, it's staggering.

In the 1970s, they started in one or two catfish ponds that were using these fish to clean the algae out for the catfish.

They've reproduced from those few ponds to the entire Midwest area from the Great Lakes, all the way south of the Gulf.

- I'm assuming they originate from Asia.

- They do, yes.

- You're not dealing with a chimp here.

(both laughing) - It is their hamburger, though.

- Tell me about, you were talking about the food banks.

So is there partnerships with them?

- Right now we have a partnership with Peoria Food Bank, and I do provide them with some of this minced product that they hand out to their food pantries.

And we've had many people come back and request more.

They're like, "This is a great protein.

"We love it.

"It cooks up easily, it doesn't smell like fish, "doesn't taste like fish."

It tastes like whatever you want to taste like.

- We've got these pests, right?

You've turned it into a business.

I mean, this is now producing jobs in the area, not just with you, but with these commercial fishermen.

- Correct.

- And they're catching them with nets, correct?

- [Roy] Yes, they are.

So in the beginning there was a lot fewer commercial fishermen out there that were actually doing this on a regular basis.

Since we've opened up, we've increased the catch numbers, and the number of fishermen that are out there because they can actually make a living doing this.

They have a market to sell their fish to, it's close, convenient, and they get paid on a weekly basis.

- I mean, are they all out?

I mean, is there a limit on these, or can they just go catch as many as they can?

- You can catch as many as you can.

And the good thing about the fishermen is they see the benefit of this whole program that we've developed because they bought bigger boats, they've done things to increase the quality of the fish, because that's a key component of this.

These fish have to be iced down when you catch them.

They have to be iced down at the location.

- [Rob] That's fake ice.

- This is fake ice.

(laughing) - It's okay.

- It gives the perception.

But they have to be taken care of like any other fish.

- Yeah.

- The great part about this fish is, it is fresh fish.

Most fish you get in the grocery store has been frozen or thawed twice before you eat it.

- [Rob] Really?

- Yes.

- Oh, I didn't know that.

Kinda makes me want to stay with beef.

- Exactly.

- I'm a deer outfitter, right?

And I have people that come in and they hunt deer on ground that we own, ground that we lease.

I know deer is a pest.

People want rid of deer, and I accept that, and it's good, but I'm like, "Eh, it's not bad to have the population up."

Are you worried about being too successful and actually diminishing your product?

- That would be a great problem to have, except just the Peoria Pool alone there's 15 million pounds a year that we can harvest a year without reducing or doing anything to the population.

If we expand our area, which we have the capabilities of doing, we could harvest 50 million pounds just in the Illinois River alone without making a dent in the population, and 250 million pounds a year if you go south.

- All right, you're starting to sound like a politician, just throwing out these astronomical numbers.

- They're staggering.

- 50 million- - In the state of Illinois.

- In the Illinois River.

- In the Illinois River, that's correct.

- I can't even, I'm trying to think of something that would visualize 50 million pounds.

How much would something like this weight, do you think?

- That weighs about eight pounds.

- That's a lot of fish.

- Just add up a semi-load.

So every semi can hold about 40,000 pounds.

So five is 200,000 pounds.

So then you go, okay, we'll take that times 10, whatever that number would be, and then you just keep multiplying that number.

It would be multiple semi-loads every single day in this state.

- Okay, you pivoted from frozen food to this.

This is a different animal.

Ha!

(both laughing) It's a different animal.

One of the things that's different about it is you're actually improving the environment of that river.

- Yes, that's correct.

- Does that mean something to you?

- It does to me, and it means something to my kids of which I have six.

- [Rob] You've got six kids?

- Six kids, yes.

- Whoo!

- They all help in the business.

But yes, it's helping the quality of the river.

These fish actually are benefiting the river right now.

They're actually cleaning the river.

But in these large numbers, then they hurt the native species fish in there, which your average angler, or your sports fisherman, wants to catch the sport fish.

They don't want to catch Asian carp.

90% of the fish pulled out of the Illinois River right now are Asian carp.

There's three different varieties they pull out: the silver carp, the big head, and the grass carp.

- Okay.

Another thing, and I mean, it's almost a joke, but unless it happens to you, these can hurt people.

- They very well can.

And that's why they've gone from just an invasive species to an injurious species as far as IDNR is concerned, These fish have caused more harm to humans than any other species of fish.

So they've moved them from just invasive to also injurious.

They've caused loss of different body parts, eyes, things like that, broken face bones, nose, things like that.

But they've also unfortunately have killed people.

When you get hit by a fish four or five times that size in a motor boat, it'll knock your head back.

- I was unaware that there was actually deaths because of these.

That makes it pretty scary.

And going back to our, I mean, it's just the environment, too.

I suppose one less fish out there is one less fish that could jump up and smack somebody in the face.

- Right.

Our goal is to harvest enough to return the Peoria Lake and Peoria area to a usable water recreational center.

That way, if we can harvest enough from this area, it does two things: returns it to a recreational waterway, but it also puts much less pressure on the Great Lakes when these fish go north.

The more we harvest here, the less pressure on the Great Lakes, which is a $7 billion industry that they want to protect.

- The Canadians are very worried about this getting into Lake Michigan, right?

- Exactly.

- They don't want them.

- They don't want them.

None of the states wants them, Michigan, Wisconsin.

They all rely on Lake Michigan for a lot of revenue, and they do not want those fish there.

They're trying to do everything they can.

We felt let's tackle this at the source.

- [Rob] Are you a river guy?

- I used to be, but not right now.

- You have six kids; you're probably too busy.

- I'm a lake guy.

- I love it.

I love sitting out there and watching it.

I don't have a boat, but it's like when the boats drive by, it's just like, man, that looks like fun.

Just hanging out, having a beer.

And then you watch these fish jump up, and it's like, it kind of ruins that part of it, too.

I know it's not as important as like getting hurt or the ecosystem of the river, but the tourism, and having that river as some sort of recreation, that's gotta bring a lot into Peoria, too.

- It will, it will.

And that's what our goal is.

We feel we can definitely make enough of an impact to restore that over time.

We just need help from individuals like yourself and people that would view your show, and just spread the word that if you eat them, they will go away.

(both laughing) - If you wanna do your part, eat this.

- Do your part, yes.

- The commercial fishing part of it.

You can't just go out there as like an angler, put your worm on a bobber, and then go and show you four or five fish and say, "Here you go."

it's gotta be a commercial deal.

- It has to be commercial fishermen, and these fish, you don't catch in a bobber, you catch with a net, because they are filter feeders- - [Rob] It was a joke.

- I know.

- Apparently it wasn't a very good joke.

- Exactly.

So you do have to have a commercial fishing license, and then you go from there.

We will accept your fish.

We grade them based on size and quality.

So if they're a grade A quality, we use them for human consumption.

Grade B goes to other avenues like the fertilizer, or baked.

So we wanna make sure only the grade A premium product goes for human consumption.

- You know, one thing that you've got as a benefit to you is like over myself, that grows corn and soybeans, I tell people about corn and soybeans, they're kind of like, "Eh, it's kind of interesting."

Everybody knows this.

Did you hear Tracy out in the area, the lobby area there, she was talking about she killed one with a screwdriver.

- Exactly.

- Everybody has a carp story.

So everybody knows what you're doing.

- Everybody exactly knows what these fish are.

They just don't know how to deal with them.

And now we found a way to provide jobs, and help the environment, and clean up the waterways.

- Okay, what's the future?

- The future is we wanna be the epicenter that started this program that can then spread to other areas in the state of Illinois or other states so that we can manage this resource.

- How about Sorce Freshwater?

They gonna expand out of the Peoria area?

- We will once we've established a good foothold and a good program to then move to other areas.

But our goal is to make Peoria the center of excellence, or the epicenter, similar to what Caterpillar did.

- We're running out of time.

I was kinda hoping at some point you would talk a little smack to this fish.

- (laughing) I don't know what smack to talk to that fish.

What would you suggest?

- 'Sup, bruh?

'Sup?

You thought you were cool jumping out of the water.

Look at you now.

- There we go.

I see so many of these fish a day because I go back and I meet the commercial fishermen every time they bring fish in.

Last week alone, we brought in 140,000 pounds of this species of fish.

- Wow.

All right, where can people find out more about Sorce Freshwater and what you do?

- They go to our website at SorceFreshwater.com.

They can also go to the Midwest Fish Co-op website, which we've helped host with the commercial fishermen.

- Okay, and I gotta imagine that's an increasing industry, too, with the commercial fishermen.

Hey, they've got something to do now in the Peoria area.

- Exactly.

And we brought in probably 30 or 40 new jobs, not just with the fishermen, but also their deck hands, just for this program.

- Any of them have like a wooden leg?

- Not yet.

(both laughing) - It's very interesting.

We had you on the radio show, and I couldn't wait to get you here- - I appreciate that.

- To have you show up with a fish.

It just has made my day.

And to think, would you just say this is a keeper, but not necessarily a big one?

- It's a keeper.

That's one we'd start with right there.

The smaller ones are harder to harvest the protein out of.

So we basically use this size as our benchmark.

- I'd be thrilled if I ever caught a fish this big.

- Exactly.

- But all I gotta do is go out with a net.

- All you have to do is go out with a net.

- Okay.

Anybody can catch them, but you just can't sell them.

- We cannot buy them from a non-commercial fishermen.

- [Rob] Okay, I gotcha.

- But there are places to dispose of these fish.

- The website, once again?

- SorceFreshwater.com.

- Okay.

- No U in Sorce.

- I love what you're doing.

- Thank you, appreciate it.

- I think it's great.

I think you're taking a problem, and you're not only benefiting yourself, but you're benefiting the community, and that's what it's all about.

- Exactly, exactly.

- I think you oughta be really proud, and your six kids.

- Six.

(laughing) (Rob laughing) - Do they all fish now?

- They all work in the fish business with us.

So, varying degrees.

- Gosh, okay.

How long can this thing sit here and be good?

- Quite honestly, it could sit here for several hours.

- Okay, even with the fake eyes?

- Even with the fake eyes.

It was very cold before we brought it in.

(both laughing) We chill them down to the right temperature- - And this is a real fish.

- It is a real fish.

Just like that.

There you go, see?

- Roy Sorce, thank you so much for being on.

And everybody else.

We hope you catch us next week.

- Thank you.

Thank you, Rob.

- Now I won't shake your hand 'cause it's all- - That's okay.

- Ugh!

(laughing) - There you go.

Just like deer.

- Fantastic.

- Thank you.

- Catch everyone next week.

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